interviews
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live Gmadian Jewish News. Friday; Fcbruary^O, 1970- i'agc 3
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EDITOR-JN-CHIEF OF CANADA'S LARGEST NEWSPAPER.- Peter C. Newman, one time Ottawa editor of Maclean's magazine, is also one of Canada's best selling authors. His book on John Diefenbaker, Renegade In Power sold a phenomenal 100,000 copies. His latest book on the Pearson and Trudeau eras has also been equally well received.
Born in Vienna, Peter Newman lived most of his early life in Vienna and emigrated with his family to Canada in 1940. He was educated at Upper Canada College and the University of Toronto. He was appointed editor-in-chief of the Toronto Star on February 1st, 1969 at the age of 39.
CJN:
Mr. Newman, alttioueliour newspaper does not have exclusively parochial concerns, we are quite naturally involved with the situation in the Middle East and one of the questions which has intrigued us, particularly in the Star's coverage of the situation in the Middle East, is. the way in which you interpret reports emanating from both Israeli and Arab sources. Could you make a comment on what you base your evaluation of those reports in terms of accuracy, etc.
PN:
Well, this is a very big problem for us as for most Canadian newspapers because unlike reporting from Ottawa or Queen's Park you don't have any first hand experiences. You have to take the word of the man who is on the spot; so the first thing you try to do is to liave a man of proven integrity as your correspondent for both sides.
We have recently changed our correspondent because we felt tjiat the man we had before was not giving us the kind of objective reporting . that we wanted. The man we have now, ElieEyal, isafirst rate journalist. He works for Ma'ariv and has extensive experience. He was in Washington for one of the large Israeli newspapers and we are quite happy withhiscov-erage. .
We have our man stationed in Rome, Bob Reguly, and he covers the Middle East on an occasional basis. He goes to Israel and Egypt and does articles. I think judging from the kind of news we publish we are always very con-. scibus that unlike news from any other part of the world we have to strain for accuracy. It Is notjust a question of being right but of being absolutely certain that you are right!
CJN:
Mr. Newman, we-would like to ask you a few questions about your personaV .background. Knowing that you were a newcoiiier to Canada we consider it an important event that you were appointed editor of the lar gest. Canadian newspaper. Youwere a non-native Canadijin, and we don*t think it could have been possible with the New. York. Times. But it is possible in the, Star ahditshows that we are far removed from this prejudice. \Ve are . more progressive here perhaps than in New York. /
Becaiise of the fact that _ many of ypiir family were killed in Europ^.^ during, the holocaust I would like to ask how. you felt when you were.' in Israel. What was your first reaction when you saw Is-
■■raelT
"\ irealized why it was s6 important JudaisiTi.. . survive ...". .
PN: ■ ■■
Weli;^ that it was
the first time that I was proudV to be a Jew and I don't mean to imply by that at other times 1 had been ashamed of being a Jew. 1 niean that this was a very active kind of chest-bursting pride and the reason lias nothing to do with the Jewish religion^ The reason has to do with the fact that 1 realized finally that being Jewish is less a religion thanaconr dition of life, an approach to living, and that I became proud of the accomplishments of the Jews m Israel.
I realized why. it was so important, not'trPmyself but
to the course of human history that Judaism survive, and why it was such a grand achievement that it had survived. Also I realized why the Israelis so desperately want to have a clear title to the territory under their feet, and why it was so important that Israel remain a Jewish state. I also realized, speaking now in political terms, why it was essential that the Arabs not take over Israel.
I think the main importance of Israel is that it is the one nation in the world where the Jews are in the majority and if that disappears there is really no reason for it to remain. Having realized this I also realized Israel's great problems. You have the wide divergence of birth rates. The Arab population in Israel is multiyplying at least three or four' time? faster than the Jewish population, and so if you look at only three or four generations from now, unless there , is much more emigration to Israel or the birth rate is raised or something else happens that we cannot predict, I have great fears about the long-term future of Israel as a Jewish state.
CJN:
Perhaps emigration is the aniswer to the survival of Israel. Now coming back again to this soul-searching. It seems to us that when you came to Israel first you felt like your great countryman Kafka, the first soul of the Yiddish theater in Prague. Remember how he described this in his memoirs: "I never knew that I understood Yiddish," he said, and it seems that every Jew understands Yiddish. Remember that?
W'e know that there is something that the Jew senses when it comes to Israel, Do you agree that in a sense the Christian world is the cause of what happened in the last 2,000 years? I think Schrei-l)er expressed it best when he said: " It owes a debt to humanity to see to it that the Jewish state remains intact.'' Do yoii feel that there is some kind of obligation for what is called the Christian - world? We don't know what it is exactly --the concept is very vagiie. Do you agree with me that there is an international obligation dating from the days of Alexandria and Egypt to the days of Rome to secure their existence?
■pNi'
Yes of course I agree with you but there is a subtle problem here and that JSj 'how do you deifine the Jewish T state? When dealing geographically with" the terrir tories conquered in 1967 you include the. West Bank, yoij \: include the Sinai, yot ; include GolanHeights. I think there is no questioii.'that there is a depth both in humanitarian terms and in cultural terms. The Jewish peo- ; pie have contributed so much to so-called Christian sor ciety, but 1 think the big question in Israel how is not : the theoretical depth but the actual strategic position of the cbuhtry,; and 1 was not all cpnyinced when I went there.
rpould not understand be-;" f^-Twent there why Israel Qould not liandjts fate oveHo he Lnited Nations. Now I understand It. I was very (Sympathetic to Israel, bull I did hot understand it, and: ^^ot 4verybody can go there aqd iWrn for himselj.
"I tried to express in my articles wfhy . . . Jerusalem cannot be handed back."
This IS a very important thing. Israel has not proper-
ly explained itself. That is what I feel. Now maybe it is impossible until you go to the Golan Heights and you look down on the kibbutzim and see the guns thit are still there. You just don't understand why it is so important that Israel keep the-Golan Heights. 1 tried to express in my articles why this is necessary and why the Sinai has to be a bunker between Egypt and Israel, and why Jerusalem cannot be handed back. It belongs to the Jewish people. These are' easy things for you to understand and for me to understand after I was there, but I frankly don't think that the decision-makers in Washington or even in Ottawa (and -OttawajlQes nQt_count very much) really understand the situation, and if I was an Israeli politician I would be very worried about it.
CJN:
Do you feel that there is a lack of real understanding in North America of the physical danger to the Jewish state today as well?
".. . the AratK can be defeated a hundred times but Israel has only to be defeated once and it is the end."
PN:
Yes, and partly because they have been defeated by their own success. I mean there is a natural sympathy for the underdog and as long as Jews were underdogs there was no problem, but now they are acting like something out of James Bond. Nothing they do, it seems, can go wrong. They kidnap boats, they kidnap radar stations. People think they are unbeatable and that we should help these poor Arabs. Of course what nobody realizes is that the Arabs can be defeated a hundred times, but Israel has only to be defeated once and it is the end.
But again I don't think this point, which is a very harsh reality, has come through. When I was in Israel I was lucky enough to hail^e an interview with Abba E ban and he said: "Dark recollections crowd in on us whenever we think about the implications of defeat. The issue is not m.ilitary occupation but physical massacre. After all, much in Jewish history is too terrible to be believed, but nothing is too terrible to have happened." That is the end of the quote and I firmly subscribe to it.
CJN:
We would like now to return from the Middle East to Canada. Yoii know that all of us have been impressed by what you have written. We would like to know what you think about the' integration of the silent one-third of Canadians who are neither French nor English by descent; their future, their belonging in this country. Do you think that the concept in Canada of two races is out-dated in the 70s, and that we should take a new look at Canada?
"i think it is much easier in Canada to break out of the class system."
PN:-'
I would like to give a little longer answer to this because I think it is a very important question. On one level you have the reality of Canada and on another level you have the'constitutional theory of Canada. Now I recognize that in constitu- ■ tibnal theory there is such a thing as two fbunding races, the French and the English, and 1 fail to see anything . wrong with giying-special recognition in-the new constitution tb this fact.
BuJ^there is another, andl think, much more impbrtant. approach Jo this and that is the reality of Canada.: You talk aboiit the silent one-third. 1 don't think they are very silent, I'm not silent! You look at the communications industry, which is the industry I know, and you find many people of nbn-. Anglo Saxon, hon- French origin who are in command-. ing positions to be heard in the country. We have leading j our nal is ts, lead ing pol itical scientists, military analysts, arid so I think that in.the reality of Canadian life there-is really no such obstacle, and this is the thing that made me so proud to be a Canadian: that it is an unstructured society, or at least It is less structured than most other societies.
I think It IS much easier in Canada to breik out of the class system or to break into a position of influence than, for example, the United
States. I think upward mobility is much more possible here, and it does not matter what your background is. What matters is how good you^re, how much ambition you have, what kind of personal sacrifices you are prepared to make, but mostly how good yoii are. That is a pretty nice criterion, 1 may be lucky but I personally have yet to experience anything that would lead me to think there was something more required, that you had to be of a certain background, or that you had to have a certain education, or a certain religion. I have not run across this. It may be luck, but this has been my experience.
CJN:
We would like to ask you a question now about the Star's editorial policy, in view of what you have just said. We think it is a rather eloquent statement of the opportunities which exist in Canada, Why has the Star been so forceful in its condemnation of the presence of Americans, particularly American professors in Canada'Could you comment on that?
"I am so pro-Canadian that I want to protect this Canada."
PN:
I find that as I get to know more people in Canada I find that the most ardent Canadian nationalists are people who have not been born here. People who have been born here take this country for granted; they take its future for granted. But those of us who came as I did -- I came here in 1940 running away from Hitler — and Canada literally saved me from the gas ovens, so I felt a certain gratitude to this country, and I love this country.
I am not anti-American, but I am so pro-Canadian that I want to protect this Canada. I want to save what is left here of'the kind of society I was talking about; the kind of society where you can move ahead; the kind of society that is much more gentle than American society; the kind of society where there is much more room to grow both physically and mentally.
There is much more freedom here than there is right now in the States. And so when you analyze Canadian .society and you decide that it is worth preserving you come to the question "What is threatening it?" and in my view it is Americanization, I don't mean only in a business sense, but also perhaps more importantly, in a cultural sense.
I am very proud of the fact that the Toronto Star is the most nationalistic paper in Canada and we are determined to keep Canada Canadian and the only way you are going to do that is to teach Canadian history, Canadian political science, and Canadian literature in our universities. American professors may be very well qualified to teach American history and various related subjects but only a Canadian professor can teach Canadian subjects.
I think it is terribly important that our young people at least have a chance; to absorb the past of this country and think about its future. We are riot excluding American professors. What we arje saying is that at least one-third should be Canadians, Now that is not. too much to ask.
;CJN: . ■ ■
But Mr. Newman isn't that kind of thinking precisely the same:'that Canadian officials might have adopted, orLtheeve of your airrivar in Canada, In order to maintain the particular Canadian quality they might have said we must keep piityiennese Jews.
;iN:-^V-.--v:.^':.-^(^.>'-^'
1 don't think so because I think there is a qualitative difference here: First of all we Were coming into this country as farmers. At that time you could Only immi-. grate as a far riier. M y father had to buy a far m and we ; lived oh it for five years so that we were- not going to. influence the fabric of Canadian society. : ■ :
We are not asking for all professors to be Canadians. We are. saying that there should be some limit; and as you fknow some of the facuir ties m Canadian universities are^now 60-70- 80% American, and] think that is wrong.
CJN:
But precisely, when you speak of limits or limitations, is this, not the point
where discrimination begins? There is a very delicate line that you will not notice, and then you begin discriminating. You say 307t Americans, and other men will say 20% Americans and then one will improve upon it and say '.^no Americans," so that'you are reaching a point wliere there is no more freedom.
PN:
I just have to repeat what I said before --that this is too important. I think there has to be some Canadian input into the education of our young people. Now if you are teaching physics or chemistry or nuclear engineering I don't think it matters whether tlie profesisor is American or Canadian. Even though I hate discrimination I would favor discrimination to keep some of that intellectual input Canadian.
,CJN:
What do you mean by Canadian literature?
PN:
Well, as the author of several books I don't know why you ask me that question. (Laughter.) I think there is a considerable and growings body of Canadian literature. I don't think it is the greatest literature in the world, but it is ours, and I think again our young people should be conscious of it, They should learn about it. I can name lots of people: Morley .Callahan, Hugh MacLennan; that is all part of creating and nurturing a national psyche and if all our literary heroes are Americans I tliink it is bad for the future of the country.
''i did not think he (Diefenbaker) wsiija very :Qood Prime Minister; but I thought his human inrtincts were warm ..."
■PN:' ■
Yes, he did a lot of good things. 1 think Diefenbaker' was very, sincere when he said he was against racial discrimination :and I have always admired his instincts. I did not think he was a very : gobd Prime Minister, but 1 thought his human instincts were very wairm and very good. Even in his policies 1 did not disagree^^with; them so riiucti as Ws inability to run the gGvernment fropti day to day. 1 disagree with, that, not with the main thrust of his policiesx wnich I' think were mostly right; - except towards Quebec.
CJN:
We wanted to ask you about Trudeau. The Star was quite enthusiastic about Trudeau in the ' early days of his reign. We have noticed a suggestion of a disenchantr ment with Trudeau^ Would
you com.iient on this please. PN:
We are generally thought of as a Liberal paper with a large L, but actually, certainly under my editorship, we are an independent paper and nobody should expect us to praise everything that a Liberal Prims Minister does. Wepi-aisehimforsome things, we condemn lain for others.
We are, as you say, a little bit disenchanted because we detect a certain lack of compassion in som'5 of his policies. Biafra is a prime example. His fight against inflation, when he saysthattlie government would be quite happy to accept 6^o unemployment — I think that this is a heartless conclusion. We criticize him for his approach to the press. We think his government is too secretive.
On the other hand we support him very strongly on his policy vis a vis Quebec. We think he is doing thexjglit thing in terms of not allowing Quebec to be cornfred into a ghetto but saying that French Canada is something more than Quebec, We support him on most of his constitutional amendments. What I am really saying is that we treat him like any other Prime Minister. We support those policies we agree with and we criticize those we don't.
CJN:
Would you like to say a word about Pearson'.'
"Because he (Pearson) was so w«ak the separatists newer had a target."
PN:
Mr, Pearson of course is
CJN: , .r
Would you say that you ' prefer a student to read Mr. X (we don't want to name the Canadian author or insult him) to Faulkner or to Hemingway?
PN:
No, certainly not. But I think he should have a choice of doing bothj 1 think there has to be Canadian content in Canadian education.
CJN:
Getting back to the uni-. versify professor problem. It seems to us somewhat ironic and perhaps a bitter phenomenon in history when a country invites academics from another country and welcomes them in the building up of its educational system, and then suddenly decides it no longer needs them because it has to develop a Canadian psyche. Is that not a rather callous approach to education?
PN:
No, I am not- suggesting we don't need ^y American professors. All I am saying is that there should be a minority presence of Cana-dlati professors in those faculties which really form a person in a cultural sense. One-third should be Canadian professors in political science and;these faculties. Otherwise you are going to have all these "young Canadians educated entirely by Americans, and I think that is wrong.
CJN: , ■
Mr. Newman, we have noted in your book about Diefenbaker that you paid some compliments to him, some lesser compliments. Don't you think that in one area Diefenbaker's role was outstanding? In our opinion he contributed to making Canada less WASP.
a big problem because he is such a terribly nice guy but I. thought he was a lousy Prim? Minister because he just could not control his cabinet and lie was not the kind of strong man.that Canada needed in that very important transitional per-it)d.
But again with one exception I think it would have been a tragedy to have a strong Prime Minister in one sense because the Separatists in Quebec would have had a target. Because he was -so weak the Separatists never had a tarj^et, because Pearson gave intoQue-bec every time the Separatists made a big fuss. Pearson, just shrugged and gave in. This was a very useful thing. Like all Prime Ministers, and this includes Diefenbaker, there are some good things and some bad things, and I am sure this will be true of Trudeau.
I personally admire atl three men. I think Canada has been very lucky to have all three. I think Diefenbaker was a very good thing after tlie arrogance of the Liberals in 1957. I think Pearson was a very gool thing after the indecision of Diefenbaker in 19G3. Trudeau is a very good thing after Pearson's transitional politics, Mr. Stanfield? I think Mr, Stanfield is probably the must honest man we have ever had in Canadian politics. He is certainly not a great charismatic figure but 1 tliink he is a very honest man.
CJN:
Coming back to Israel and the Middle East, concerning public relations of the State of Israel which concerns all Jews, don't you think it would
be advisable for intellectuals and writers in Canada, and Canada exerts great world influence, some of us to get together sometimes, Jews and non-Jews, to discuss the problems of the Middle East, and not be sensitive to criticism, BiiT pick up the challenge-and answer') it.
We believe the time has come now to create som^ kind of a committee or an organization of independent writers, journalists, artists who are interested" in the Middle East and who want to prevent World War III. No matter what America says--and Rogers says if it comes down to an attack against Israel the United States will defend Israel. Don't you think we should take this out from the so-called professional Jewish atmosphere, from the professional Jews, and turn it over for a while to some independent public relations men who understand public opinion'.'
PN:
That is the best idea 1 have lieard for a long time, I do want to make one thing clear, 1 am not criticizing Israel's public relations, I think those are the wrong words. The press people I dealt with could not have been better, but that is only one aspect of it. Not everybody can go there. If something like you describe .could be set up here I think it would do a lot of good.
"What is at the heart of the Middle East War is not racial conflict but jealousy."
I think the Jews would have to accustom them.selves to some criticism because that was the one feeling, the
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one negaitive feeling I had in Israel, tliat everybody thought everything was perfect, and it is not perfect --in Israel any more than in any other country, but I can understand it because there is so much accomplished there, and the problems are so great that every road, every bridge fs a real ac-complisiiment. But I tliink the . kind of committee you are talking about would be a. great help. 1 would suggest that you get people from both sides as guests, and that you develop some kind of dialogue because I have a feeling (it's unsubstantiated, just an instinct) that what is at the heart of the Middle East war is not a racial conflict but jealousy.
I think the Arabs look at Israel and look at what can be done with that territory which is the same as their country in terms of vegetation and potential. They hate these people who have succeeded where they have failed. If only Israel could be big enough to share some of its accomplishments as lam sure it would if there could be some guarantee of peace. 1 think that's the way the solution lies, and not in more wars, because the more wars there are the more danger there is of Israel losing its warmth and its culture, it's going to become a kind of Sparta with young people worshipping the best fighters and this kind of thing. And that is not what Israel should be about.
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